The mighty Darwin fish
I’ve always been interested in science but I’ve never understood why some sci-guys hate christianity so much. I was reminded of this when I read Jonah Goldbergs article in LA Times regarding the Darwin fish, a parody of the Jesus fish that many put as a bumper sticker on their cars. The Darwin fish has the word Darwin or Evolve in it.
I suppose some supporters of science and modernity imagined that religion would just evaporate in the face of rational thought sometime during the 20th century. And when that didn’t happen they became horribly frustrated and in need to vent their anger on someone.
But why not target all religions? Is christianity more scientifically incorrect than the other world religions? No, but it isn’t politically correct to bash jews or hindus, and bashing muslims is downright dangerous. Ergo christians. How sad, lame and impotent is that?
Filed under: Religion, Science, Society | 29 Comments
Tags: Darwin fish, Jesus fish, Jonah Goldberg, Religion, Science
Hi. So why do us “sci-guys” dislike Christianity?
We don’t dislike Christianity itself, if it helps you thats great. We dislike when it influences the world in a negative way. Thats why I don’t bash Buddhism. Buddhism never invaded Iraq. “Radical” Islam attacked America but good ole’ fashioned evangelical Christianity has in effect killed hundreds of thousands of civilians. Then banning stem cell research? Other than being illogical, thats just mean to the people it could help. If you believe in a logical scientific interpretation of the world, you’re actions will probably kill less people.
Invading Iraq was a desicion based on military strategy. I don’t know of any church leaders lobbying in that issue. Just claiming that any wrongdoings from the US is somehow in the name of Jesus doesn’t make sense. It simply isn’t.
If you want to compare numbers then look at muslim and christian extremism and their respective bodycounts. It is clear to anyone who cares to look that muslim terrorism accounts for almost all international religious terrorism. Also, that picture should be adjusted for opportunity making the situation even more one-sided. So for every Darwin fish the should be at least two public expressions for dislike of Islam.
“If you believe in a logical scientific interpretation of the world, you’re actions will probably kill less people.”
Not necessarily. True that scientifically minded people seldom are fanatics. But the what really is killing this planet and its inhabitants is applied science. Without it there wouldn’t be any global warming. Or sophisticated weapons in the hands of muslim terrorists for that matter.
“It is clear to anyone who cares to look that muslim terrorism accounts for almost all international religious terrorism.”
Wrong, in Ireland catholics and protestants have been fighting in Ireland for hundreds of years. When I was growing up Northern Ireland was on the news every week for IRA bombings in Belfast.
You can of course search back in history but I was refering to modern day Muslims and the current world situation. According to Wikipedia “between 1969 and 2001, 3,526 people were killed as a result of the Troubles”. Compare that to the roughly 3000 killed in 9/11 to put it into perspective. Another interesting number: there have been 1685 suicide bombings in Iraq between 2003 and present day. Thats a few more thousand causalties right there. Then you have other attacks in the Middle East, Africa, Southeast Asia and other places. It’s on a completely different scale.
Invading Iraq was a decision based on politics. A leader was elected, due to his christian fundamentalist following, that invaded Iraq. Church leaders had a huge effect in his election. Legally they can’t say they supported him, but they could tell their congregation to “vote for someone who supports our issues.” I hate to presume, but I assume that you’re a christian and agreed with his decision?
And your reply about bodycounts justs points to the word “terrorism.” Sure, terrorism is bad, but when a nation kills people its just as bad. When it kills more people (hundreds of thousands), its worse.
And its not scientists who instigate global warming, its business men.
–Late with the reply, but I enjoy the debate
@pretentiousprick
You are so ignorant of history and humanities. Buddhism & Islam were responsible for numerous bloody wars in ancient times. Tens of millions of people were killed and executed by people who claimed to represent one of the two faiths. Christianity does not kill people; it’s the people who claim to represent Christianity that are at fault here. Before you start to lambaste a particular religion, please do some research first.
Pretentiousprick:
You can’t blame church leaders for rooting for Bush in 2000. That was three years before he decided to invade Iraq. The republican election campaign was about moral and social issues (and not Iraq) so of course they supported him. And remember that democrats like Hillary Clinton voted in favor of an invasion.
No I’m not a Christian (I’m not into organized religion) and neither is Jonah Goldberg for that matter. And no, I never liked the idea of an invasion. A lot of presumption there.
“when a nation kills people its just as bad”
It all depends on which nation we are talking about and why it kills people. The invasion was a mistake, most politicians who voted for it admit that. But it was an attempt at self-defence, which is something entirely different from what al Qaeda are up to. And many Iraqis are being killed by muslim terrorist. It is not american soldiers who blow themselves up in the market place.
I never claimed that Islam wasn’t responsible for violence. I am just as much against Islamic extremism as I am against Christian extremism. I bash Christianity because thats what I see all around me.
As for Buddhism, it has been responsible for much less violence, especially in modern times. Buddhists in Sri Lanka are exceptionally violent, but its an exception. One of the core tenets of the religion stresses nonviolence, which is widely followed. I agree that like all religions, some use it to justify violence. It just happens much less with Buddhism, its the religion of pacifism. I couldn’t find any neutral statistics, please post some if you know of any.
And I would say Christianity has a strong influence in whats going on. Maybe I should clarify and say “evangelical Christianity.” Its not just the people who claim to represent them that are at war; its the huge voting base that puts those people in office and approves of their job enough to reelect them. I’m not claiming every Christian is part of the movement, but I think its safe to say most.
Please give some evidence if you are going to insult me.
@Paradigm (my last post was @ leafless)
Bush was reelected, which is a sign of approval. And the republican campaign was largely about “security” as well. Less democrats voted for the invasion, but I’m talking more about religion than political parties.
And Iraq was FAR from an attempt at self defense. The intelligence was cherrypicked, and the nation was duped. Americans don’t blow themselves up in a marketplace, but they drop bombs on it.
The country was in a bit of a crisis when Bush was re-elected. Many probably thought that continuity would be the best thing. Besides, the war was new then, many were still deceived by the theory that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. Voters thought they were defending themselves by supporting Bush. Being fooled to believe you need to defend yourself is completely different from attacking someone on religious grounds.
As for dropping bombs on the market place, I doubt you can find one single report of an intentional attack on a purely civil target.
that little fish you made is so stupid….
you have like no time on your hands!
I was just trying to make a point, not attempting high art.
The reality is that the darwin fish is a reaction against the religion we find oppressive and stupid. It was created in Christian countries by people who are surrounded predominantly by Christians. Its not that we don’t think all religion is equally stupid, it’s just not often that we have muslims, jews, or buddhists in our faces affecting our laws with irrationality. In western countries, people from other religions tend to be in the minority and being less safe in numbers, are less preachy. Some experience persecution because of their race and background – when the whole rest of the world is hating muslisms and imagining them to be monsters, it doesn’t seem the politic moment to bring up the finer irrational points of the Quran. However, if we were all living in North Korea where Christianity is persecuted, I doubt anyone would be pushing the Darwin fish.
Sorry, I don’t buy it. That so many dislike muslims is due to the fact that all terrorism resulting in major causalties is carried out by muslims. And due to the fact that so many of them support Al-Qaeda and Hamas, sharia laws etc. Islam is unique in its intolerance and violence.
Sure, you are surrounded by christians but how many of them are violent? Compare the sharia with what they want regarding legislation if you want a little perspective. And take a look around – the world is bigger than the USA, and what goes on in it affects you. Remember 9/11? Be thankful your neighbor is only a pesky evangelicalist and not an Al Qaeda-supporter.
My guess is that you don’t make funny bumper stickers about muslims is beacause you know about the Danish and Swedish cartoonist who still live under threat. You might think that you are rational but in reality you are only rationalizing your own fear.
And, by the way, merry Christmas ; )
Anything you stick on your car is retarded. Presidential/political stickers, religion stickers, non-religious stickers……. IT ALL SUCKS!!. People just want passersby to notice their subject of interest or perspective on some issue in society. WHY DO YOU CARE SO MUCH ABOUT WHAT SOMEONE ELSE STUCK TO THEIR CAR??? IT DOESN’T MATTER!!! Someone should make a bumper sticker slogan, ‘I Hate Bumper Stickers’.
z
It doesn’t matter wether you say it with a bumper sticker, blog or in a rally. It’s not how they say it but what they are actually saying that interests me.
The Darwin fish *does* “mock Muhammed”, as Muslims, too, are stupid enough to believe in a “creator” and some ancient wizard names “Jesus”. Just like Xians. You’re all the same (and besides I guess Muslims will have to work some more centuries to reach the number of Xian victims).
[img]http://antitheismus.de/uploads/darwin-fisch.tmb.jpg[/img]
Well, my German isn’t much to brag with, but I can see that the headlines on your web page only refer to one religion – Christianity. And yet there are a lot of Muslims in Germany. Why not adress them directly? Nice try, but I’m not buying it.
C’mon, more than two 3rds of the entries are (science fiction cartoon) Adventures of Father Anselm, Space Priest, which for obvious reasons concentrates on Catholicism. Most of the other deal with relgigion in general, some with Islam alone (like antitheismus.de/archives/53-NUHR-wers-glaubt-Dieter-Nuhr-begibt-sich-in-Lebensgefahr.html).
Just enter “Darwin” in the search field (for example; you may also try allah or moslem* or muslim*).
antitheismus.de/archives/56-Darwin-Tag.html – 4th paragraph – 7th word from the end. Don’t need to know German to understand “Allah”.
antitheismus.de/archives/59-Darwin-Tag-im-Darwin-Jahr.html – 3rd paragraph – “moslemische Selbstmordattentäter” means, as you my have guessed, Muslim suicide bombers.
Besides, the preface http://antitheismus.de/categories/1-Vorwort , 4th paragraph, will tell you more (babelfish should be sufficient to understand it). It’s not my fault that the government party here is CDU (“Christian Democratic Union”), not MDU; that the press claimed “We are Pope”; that Easter and Xmas dominate Ramadan; that Xians threatened the lives of theatre actors I know personally; that you find a bible (including your gods order to kill witches and homosexuals, conirmed by “Jesus” in Mt 5:17-19) in every hotel room; that I can’t walk a mile withour tumbling over a sculpture of your half-god “Jesus”. Yes, it will be hard to find “a lot of Muslims in Germany” in this heap of Xian shit.
So better buy it.
BTW, when you design a specific Muslim version of the “Darwin” fish let me know, if it’s good – meaning that a) it’s antitheist and funny like the Darwin fish, b) it sticks to facts (like “Mohammed had sex with a 9yo girl”, not “Xians are any better than Muslims”), and c) it might cause uproar amongst Muslims to a point were my life will be threatened or at least the press will get interested – I will put it on my bumper. Granted.
Sure, if I dig deep enough I will find the critique of Islam. But that’s just my point – it’s hidden.
“Yes, it will be hard to find “a lot of Muslims in Germany” in this heap of Xian shit.”
No, it wont. There are over three million Muslims in Germany.
Yes, you might put an anti-Islamic bumper sticker on your car, but if all those who have the Darwin fish actually did that, then there would already be a market for them and you’d see them everywhere. But that’s not the case.
the book “Lord, Save Us From Your Followers” has a really good segment on the bumper sticker culture. i’d recommend you read it. it does not attack anyone or put anyone down, it merely looks at how many bumper stickers are a terrible attempt at being opinionated. many of them are very one sided, ignorant remarks that put others down. i like that you bring this issue up because it’s one that’s very relevant. kudos to you!
True, communicating with bumper stickers is stupid. Although I kind of like the Jesus fish. It’s not really debating, merely an expression of one’s belief, like the cross. Still, many Christians hate atheists just as much as some atheists hate Christians.
Sounds like an interesting book. I noticedon Amazon that it got a bad review from Publishers Weekly, but the reader reviews are very positive and I alway trust them more than the experts.
Honestly, evrybody’s arguments on this subject flew way off tangent. If the question is about why we evolutionists use the darwin fish as an insult to christians than I must answer with a question myself; why does the darwin fish insult you? My point is that you are insulted because you believe your christian symbol, the “jesus fish”, is being somehow perverted or “mocked” by the darwin fish, and at some level, you are correct. The fish image was taken and adapted to fit our idea. But is this meant as an insult or a mockery? I don’t think so. First of all the fish symbol is a very common symbol today, especially with the bumber ornaments you see everytime you get on the roads. That symbol represents christianity, which is the most common religion in the United States. And, that religion represents the majority of evolution opposition in the United States (You don’t see a lot of islamic and jewish organizations openly opposing evolution, not in the headlines atleast). Therefore, your symbol represents the main opposition to evolution in the united states.
Now, you’re thinking at this point, “why the fish instead of the even more common symbol the cross, or some other common religious symbol?” The answer to that is just plain convenience. The theory of evolution has been painted by opposers for a century now with images of fish crawling to land and sprouting legs and walking about (complete nonsense! *rolls eyes*). But, the fish symbol is so common and this image of fish sprouting legs to represent evolution is so common that it was only a matter of time before the merged into the darwin fish honestly. All it took was a couple of stick legs! Really, I’m surprised it took so long before someone connected them.
So, the darwin fish may be adapted from your jesus fish and may oppose your beliefs but it wasn’t meant to be a strike at christianity. Not directly or exclusively atleast. The symbol was chosen simply for convenience and popularity’s sake. I assure you that if Islam had an anti-evolution symbol in common place USA that could be easily or creatively adapted to support evolution, it would be done too. So don’t feel like the lone target in the shooting gallery. I don’t hate christians, not most anyway. There are radical christians that I think we’d be better off without, but for the most part I don’t care about someone’s religion. I fully support the right to believe in whatever god(s) you want to or to believe in none at all. I’m an apatheist (if you don’t know what that is, it’s defined on wikipedia) myself and I have an agnostic-quaker, a christian, and a jewish roommate, we get along just fine despite our beliefs. i hope you can learn to set aside your own predjudices and biases someday and just respect other’s different points of view.
I don’t know you but I hope you have a wonderful life.
“The fish image was taken and adapted to fit our idea. But is this meant as an insult or a mockery? I don’t think so.”
Come on, it’s a mockery. Regardless of opinion I think most people would agree with that.
“And, that religion represents the majority of evolution opposition in the United States (You don’t see a lot of islamic and jewish organizations openly opposing evolution, not in the headlines atleast). Therefore, your symbol represents the main opposition to evolution in the united states.” /…/ “I assure you that if Islam had an anti-evolution symbol in common place USA that could be easily or creatively adapted to support evolution, it would be done too.”
If you oppose creationism then you should do that when the theory is put forward. The Jesus fish is a very old Christian symbol, not an anti-evolution symbol. The Jesus fish doesn’t even say with certainty that the person using it is a creationist. Since most Muslims are creationists it’s a less generalization to make fun of any of their symbols. And even if it always implied creationism then all attributes specific to creationists would be should be considered anti-evolution and be mocked with. Orthodox Jews are creationists but you don’t make fun of their attributes, such as the earlocks or the kippa.
“The symbol was chosen simply for convenience and popularity’s sake.”
I agree completely ; )
I am sorry for all you deluded fools. Religion regardless of belief system IS responsible for most wars and terrorism. Northern Island was actually 2 flavours of christianity fighting each other! I pretty much believe that relgious people actually are bigots and hate everyone who is diiferent.
None of WW1 and WW2 were about religion, and atheists Stalin and Mao killed millions. And even when war is supposedly about religion there are usually other factors to be weighed into the equation.
But I agree that most of todays terrorism seems to be about religion – but almost exclusively about Islam. That’s just one religion.
And let’s not forget what is really destroying this planet – applied science.
probably used the jesus fish because it is the easiest to make a parody of, and not a direct attack on Christianity at all. it is also one of the most common religious symbols that people use, such as on bumperstickers or what not.
How can a symbol mock something that it does not believe exists in the first place?
Can you really defend the slaughter carried out in the name of Christianity on the basis your assertion that it is mostly Muslims who are doing it right now? Does that make it OK?
Who gave you the right to distinguish between ‘terrorism’ and the kind of mass murder that you have decided is legitimate? Even when you admit that it was based on lies?
Are you sure your god will accept your defence that “we didn’t really know what was going on, and anyway, Muslims are worse”. Did your god not suggest that “he who is without sin should cast the first stone”?
How can ‘applied science’ destroy a planet? It has no agency. The clue is in the ‘applied’ – it is people who do that bit – choose what science will be used for. Human greed is destroying the planet. What have your preachers got to say to the people who drive the 500 yards to church in their SUVs? Or are they too busy focusing on one passage in the Old Testament, written in the Bronze Age, about the ‘evils’ of sodomy, to notice the many, many passages in the New Testament whch instruct believers who own two shirts to give one to someone who has none? How many shirts do you have?
If we do away with ‘applied science’ then we have to live without even the use of rudimentary tools. We could try sitting in trees waiting for your god to provide but he seems curiously unwilling to do that for the millions of people (many of them believers) who are starving around the world today.
These stickers are not mocking ‘Jesus’ – they are mocking the kind of smug, self-righteous, xenophobic, intellectually-challenged, intolerant, superstitious, arrogant people who think they have the right to impose their beliefs on the rest of us and then whinge when they get a bumper sticker in return. I think you got off lightly.
Aleithia:
“How can a symbol mock something that it does not believe exists in the first place?”
It mock’s the belief not Jesus per se.
“Can you really defend the slaughter carried out in the name of Christianity on the basis your assertion that it is mostly Muslims who are doing it right now? Does that make it OK?”
No, I can’t defend it and what’s more I don’t. My assumption is that the Darwin Fish is a comment on today’s society rather than part of a historical discussion. I think most people agree with that. Besides, in the old days everyone was waging war on everyone so it’s not like it evens out.
“Who gave you the right to distinguish between ‘terrorism’ and the kind of mass murder that you have decided is legitimate? Even when you admit that it was based on lies?”
The distinction between war and oppression on the one hand, and terrorism on the other is not a moral distinction. I never said that massmurder is legitimate. Where did you get that from?
“Are you sure your god will accept your defence that ‘we didn’t really know what was going on, and anyway, Muslims are worse’. Did your god not suggest that “he who is without sin should cast the first stone”?
I never said “we didn’t really know what was going on, and anyway, Muslims are worse”. Feel free to quote me, but don’t make up stuff I didn’t say.
Your assumption that I’m a Christian is also wrong. I’m not a part of organized religion. I’m merely criticizing those who constantly nag about Christianity when there is a world religion that is much, much worse that they rarely talk about.
“How can ‘applied science’ destroy a planet? It has no agency. The clue is in the ‘applied’ – it is people who do that bit – choose what science will be used for. Human greed is destroying the planet.”
True, greed is a strong incentive. But scientist give the greedy the tools they need to destroy the planet. In that way science is more harmful than religion.
“What have your preachers got to say to the people who drive the 500 yards to church in their SUVs? Or are they too busy focusing on one passage in the Old Testament, written in the Bronze Age, about the ‘evils’ of sodomy, to notice the many, many passages in the New Testament whch instruct believers who own two shirts to give one to someone who has none? How many shirts do you have?”
My preachers are busy not existing (see above on organized religion).
I have 5-6 shirts, about 10 t-shirts and a few sweaters. Does that make me a bad person?
“If we do away with ‘applied science’ then we have to live without even the use of rudimentary tools. We could try sitting in trees waiting for your god to provide but he seems curiously unwilling to do that for the millions of people (many of them believers) who are starving around the world today.”
Well, there were rudimentary tools before there was science, but I get your point. It would suck a bit. Still, I think we are overdoing it. Sure life is comfy today but tomorrow when global warming, overpopulation and pandemics start kicking in? We are easing into disaster. But I don’t want to get rid of applied science altogether. I just think we should be a little more low-tech.
“These stickers are not mocking ‘Jesus’ – they are mocking the kind of smug, self-righteous, xenophobic, intellectually-challenged, intolerant, superstitious, arrogant people who think they have the right to impose their beliefs on the rest of us and then whinge when they get a bumper sticker in return. I think you got off lightly.”
It’s a parody of the Jesus fish. It essentially says “I believe in Jesus”. If you can deduce smugness, self-righteousness, xenophobia, low intelligence, intolerance, superstition and arrogance from such a simple statement then maybe you are somewhat arrogant and cognitively challenged.